King Trumpets Serial Numbers

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• • • • • • • • -:: Author Message tom turner Heavyweight Member Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 6645 Location: USA Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2005 4:53 pm Post subject: H. WHITE (KING) VINTAGE HORN WEBSITE! Hi, This was posted on the Horns forum but probably belongs here better. A decendant of H. White has put up a fanstastic website dedicated to H. White and all the years before the White family sold out in 1965.

There is so much great information about the instruments, the family, the factory, the celebrity endorsers, catalogues, etc. This site is a MUST SEE for all vintage horn collectors, and I'd recommend you 'save' the link for future viewing too! I've corresponded with both guys that are so instrumental with the lauching of this site and invited them to visit both this website and the trumpetmaster.com site. I'm sure readers would love to ask some questions. And I hope that somewhere out there is information that some of YOU may have that will help them too! This is great!

Two new sites dedicated to the instruments and memory of H. White and Foster Reynolds! This, along with Olds Central and the Conn Loyalist sites (plus vintagecornets.com), will increase what we know about the great makers of the past and the awesome horns they lovingly made! Tom plankowner110 Heavyweight Member Joined: 12 Jun 2003 Posts: 3342 Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2005 9:06 pm Post subject: Perhaps TH members can send the webmasters of hnwhite.com photographs of their vintage King trumpets, cornets, and other instruments to build a photo library. I own a mint condition 1055T Silver Flair trumpet.) Yamaha YTR-8310Z trumpet Yamaha YFH-631G flugelhorn DaveH Heavyweight Member Joined: 20 Nov 2001 Posts: 3827 Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 1:26 pm Post subject: It's a very nice website.as long as you have a high speed connection. I have a high speed connection at work, and it is great. Otherwise, I can go wash the car while I'm waiting for it to download.

I'm glad the Silver Flair has been added to the list of trumpet models. BeboppinFool Donald Reinhardt Forum Moderator Joined: 28 Dec 2001 Posts: 6089 Location: AVL NC USA Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 5:11 pm Post subject: This is great.

I was able to finally determine that my King Master cornet is a 1932, not a 1933. I wasn't sure until just now.

Thanks for posting this, Tom! Too bad I don't make enough money to be a collector! I just looked at the serial number list, and now I'm totally confused! My King Master cornet is serial # 19xxx.

Depending on whose serial numbers I look at, this could have been made anywhere between 1905 and 1915. Rich Gilligan Heavyweight Member Joined: 24 Apr 2004 Posts: 625 Location: Colorado Springs. CO Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2005 12:56 am Post subject: Rich I've been working to find information to narrow down the White serial number list for about the last year. I know of and have pictures of a Master model cornet that has a patent date of Aug. 27, 1918 and a serial number of 47491. I've posted the details about this in another thread.

The UMI site shows that the horn with the serial number of 50,000 was made in 1915. This can't be correct as the horn above had to of been made sometime after Aug. I suspect that the UMI and Lars lists are off by about five years with the 50,000 being manufactured closer to 1920.

White started serializing horns somewhere around 1897 and to the best of my knowledge didn't have separate lists for different instruments. I don’t know what number he started with. Does your Master model cornet have the slide lock on the main tuning slide? This is what White patented on the Master model cornet. He applied for two patents for this on the Master model cornet, the first #1,277,012 on March 1, 1915 and the second #1,277013 on May 6, 1915. Both were awarded on Aug.

If your cornet has any sort of patent pending markings then it was probably made sometime between March 1, 1915 and August 27, 1918. If it doesn't then it was made earlier.

Either way let us know so we can add to or knowledge base. I hope this helps.

Gill Gill BeboppinFool Donald Reinhardt Forum Moderator Joined: 28 Dec 2001 Posts: 6089 Location: AVL NC USA Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2005 11:25 am Post subject: Gilligan wrote: Does your Master model cornet have the slide lock on the main tuning slide? If your cornet has any sort of patent pending markings then it was probably made sometime between March 1, 1915 and August 27, 1918. Wow, Gill, that's awesome that you had this information! Mine has no slide lock on the main tuning slide, but it does have PAT.PEND'G below the serial #. The sound on this horn is great, but my endurance on it is bad because the valves are leaky and in need of a replate/refit. I've noticed that it has B stamped on the outside of the main tuning slide (along with the serial number), and then A stamped on the inside of the other three tuning slides. I find that rather curious, and can't help wondering what that means.

It's a great-sounding horn, though, and I checked the pitch against my tuner and it's remarkably good, even with leaky valves. Rich Brian Moon Heavyweight Member Joined: 05 Sep 2004 Posts: 2785 Location: Detroit Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2005 12:15 pm Post subject: I asked on the HNWhite website but haven't heard back. Does anyone know the serial # of the oldest surviving King trumpet? Gilligan Heavyweight Member Joined: 24 Apr 2004 Posts: 625 Location: Colorado Springs. CO Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2005 5:54 pm Post subject: The Master model main tuning slide was designed to be long enough to change the horns key to 'A'.

Tune the main slide to 'A' and pull the other three side to the marks and your horn will play in tune in the key of 'A'. What the 'B' next to the main slide means I don't know for sure. It might indicate that the slide is for playing in Bb and A. Some horns were setup with two sets of slides for playing in high or low pitch. While others were designed to be convertable between concert C and Bb/A. What is incredible is that we now have documentable proof that horns with a serial number of 19xxx were made between 1915 and 1918. I suspect that since your horn doesn't have the slide stop it was made in 1915 or possibly as early as 1914.

The UMI serial number records are probably off by 27,000 to 30,000. Original 'King' model horns can be recognized by a lions head medalion that is mounted to the bell or the second valve tube. One sold on eBay about four months ago.

All others were horns 'Made by King Craftsmen', like the Liberty, the Master, the American Standard, the Cleveland, etc. And were only called King in a generic fashion. 'KING' didn't become a manufacturer's name until the White Company was purchased by a corporate conglomerate in 1966. BeboppinFool Donald Reinhardt Forum Moderator Joined: 28 Dec 2001 Posts: 6089 Location: AVL NC USA Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2005 9:09 pm Post subject: Gilligan wrote: Original 'King' model horns can be recognized by a lions head medalion that is mounted to the bell or the second valve tube. One sold on eBay about four months ago. All others were horns 'Made by King Craftsmen', like the Liberty, the Master, the American Standard, the Cleveland, etc. And were only called King in a generic fashion.

'KING' didn't become a manufacturer's name until the White Company was purchased by a corporate conglomerate in 1966. Now, isn't that interesting? Above the serial # mine is stamped: —'KING'— Made by H.N. White Clev'd O. 198xx medium bore (large and small caps, the lower case letters above are small caps) and all the way at the bottom is the PAT.PEND'G I had photos of this horn up a few months back and they're not there anymore. The engraving on the bell is beautiful. I have a new resolve to get the valves done and play this little sucker.

The tone really is great; right down my alley! It sure is nice to learn some history about some of these great instruments. Thanks again, Gill! Rich drducati New Member Joined: 24 Dec 2004 Posts: 8 Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2005 10:04 pm Post subject: Cleveland Cornet by 'King' My first horn,in 1954 was a Cleveland Cornet. It cost $180. I played it for several years and bought a Conn 'Coprion'.

In another year or two I bought an Olds Mendez which I still have. A few years ago I was in a Pawn shop and found a Cleveland just like the one I had in 1954 -almost new.

I bought it for $55. I was amazed at the sound it had. Nice full Cornet sound. Not at all what I remembered. One of my cousins wanted it and I gave it to him.

Shame on me for the second time. Gilligan Heavyweight Member Joined: 24 Apr 2004 Posts: 625 Location: Colorado Springs. CO Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2005 6:40 am Post subject: I'm going to have to correct myself abit here. I went back and looked at a bunch of pictures and found that all the Master model cornets have the engraving that you have on your horn.

Nick Decarlis has some incredible pictures on his website at: /url BeboppinFool Donald Reinhardt Forum Moderator Joined: 28 Dec 2001 Posts: 6089 Location: AVL NC USA Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2005 9:49 am Post subject: Gilligan wrote: I'm going to have to correct myself abit here. I went back and looked at a bunch of pictures and found that all the Master model cornets have the engraving that you have on your horn. Nick Decarlis has some incredible pictures on his website at: has the same bell engravings as mine, but it also has the tuning slide lock mechanism, which mine does not have. There's an additional screw directly below the 2nd valve slide that is not on mine.

His serial number is 16,8XX, which would be older than mine, but you said that the patent was for the tuning slide lock in 1918 or something, and he's saying that this horn is 1913. I'm more confused than ever! However, that's okay, I'm still convinced that I need to get the valve job on this horn and just play it.

Looking at Nick's collection is bad for my addiction, which has been dormant for awhile. I can't go to his website too much or I'll be in trouble! Rich Gilligan Heavyweight Member Joined: 24 Apr 2004 Posts: 625 Location: Colorado Springs. CO Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2005 7:11 pm Post subject: Quote: he’s saying that this horn is 1913 That would be pretty close to the 1915 date we have established here. Makers would put a patent pending on a horn to both protect a design from being copied and possibly improved upon and also for marketing purposes. A patent pending mark could be placed on a horn prior to the date the patent application is received by the patent office.

It is possible that your cornet was made in the year preceding the patent application and or the other date of 1913 is off by a couple of years. The screw under the second valve is only shown in two of the four patent drawings that display the whole horn configuration. Figures 1 through 4 are drawings of different views that would have the screw under the second valve visible but only figures 3 and 4 actually have the screw in the drawing.

The description from the patent is below. Quote: 'The so-called 'A' slide (8) is also provided with a device to limit its outward movement, said device compromising a rod (18) affixed to the slide and slidably engaged with the lower fixed tube (14) by a stud (19), a screw nut (20) on the end of the rod serving to adjustably limit its outward movement.' ( Reference numbers enclosed in parentheses are to numbered items within patent drawings.) It is possible that your cornet was manufactured without the 'A' conversion feature. Veteran Member Joined: 15 Jan 2003 Posts: 482 Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 5:32 pm Post subject: This website shows serial numbers for King: /urlSome of the Cleveland numbers overlap with the regular King numbers. My impression was that the Cleveland numbers were later (if it says Cleveland on the horn).

I have the master model (C/Bb) from the 30s like this. Gilligan Heavyweight Member Joined: 24 Apr 2004 Posts: 625 Location: Colorado Springs. CO Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 5:41 pm Post subject: Tom, if you look into the information we have put togeather above you'll see that that number list is off by over 30,000.

We now know that the horns with a serail number around 19,000 were made sometme between 1915 and 1918. BeboppinFool Donald Reinhardt Forum Moderator Joined: 28 Dec 2001 Posts: 6089 Location: AVL NC USA Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 6:30 pm Post subject: I'm pleased to report that my King Master (circa 1915?) now has had a valve job, and I played it on a gig tonight with excellent results! When I took it out of the shipping box and played it, I was flabbergasted at how beautifully this horn plays, and knew I had to play it on a gig as soon as possible. Lucky for me I got to do it on the same day! I had one thing done to this horn that makes it not original, and that was to have an Olds Super-style 1st valve slide thumb saddle mounted on the 1st valve slide.

It works great, I don't have any intonation problems that can't be corrected with that slide, and I'm thrilled to death (can you tell?). I had tried to sell this horn once a couple years ago, and the guy shipped it back ('cuz it needed a valve job), and now I'm glad he did. Every once in a great while the gamble pays off.

MadMan Regular Member Joined: 05 Jan 2016 Posts: 11 Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2016 2:27 am Post subject: hnwhite.com You've got that right! This website is chock full of in depth history! I go back time and time again jazzpik Veteran Member Joined: 23 Dec 2015 Posts: 104 Location: Atlanta Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2016 6:22 pm Post subject: I agree this is an excellent site and they are very helpful with questions. 1933 King Silvertone Cornet For Sale!

Giakara Heavyweight Member Joined: 13 Jul 2003 Posts: 2904 Location: Greece Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2016 9:21 am Post subject: Re: H. WHITE (KING) VINTAGE HORN WEBSITE! Tom turner wrote: Hi, This was posted on the Horns forum but probably belongs here better. A decendant of H. White has put up a fanstastic website dedicated to H. White and all the years before the White family sold out in 1965.

There is so much great information about the instruments, the family, the factory, the celebrity endorsers, catalogues, etc. This site is a MUST SEE for all vintage horn collectors, and I'd recommend you 'save' the link for future viewing too! I've corresponded with both guys that are so instrumental with the lauching of this site and invited them to visit both this website and the trumpetmaster.com site. I'm sure readers would love to ask some questions. And I hope that somewhere out there is information that some of YOU may have that will help them too!

This is great! Two new sites dedicated to the instruments and memory of H.

White and Foster Reynolds! This, along with Olds Central and the Conn Loyalist sites (plus vintagecornets.com), will increase what we know about the great makers of the past and the awesome horns they lovingly made! Tom Very intresting, thanks for posting, i will spend some hours relaxing listen vintage jazz and watch those fine looking horns. Regards 2003 Lawler TL5-1A Bb 1993 Getzen Eterna C 1966 Selmer 3 valve picc. 1973 Yamaha 731 flugel 1998 Getzen eterna 850 cornet 2017 Carol mini pocket Reeves 43 size mpc's MadMan Regular Member Joined: 05 Jan 2016 Posts: 11 Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2016 11:58 pm Post subject: hnwhite.cm yeah, you can find them on Facebook too there's a lot of activity on their page Display posts from previous: - All times are GMT - 8 Hours Page 1 of 1 Jump to: You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

. ^ White, Mrs.

Software Serial Numbers

(17 July 1997). The Encyclopedia of Cleveland History. Retrieved 26 July 2010.

White Company, LLC. Retrieved 26 July 2010. Contempora Corner. Archived from on 19 January 2013. Retrieved 26 July 2010. White Company, LLC.

Retrieved 26 July 2010. There are examples of Super 20s with serial numbers consistent with late 1980s production dates. Pete Hales of has surmised that UMI assembled some from unused pre-1975 factory stock during that period.

Bernhard Muskantor on the future of United Musical Instruments, The Music Trades, June 1990. Conn-Selmer, Inc.

Retrieved 26 July 2010. External links Wikimedia Commons has media related to.